Your Creative & Magical Life
How do we hold on to creativity and magic in a world that tries to separate us from both again and again? This podcast explores that question through the lens of Tarot, nature, and the lived experience of creative and magical humans who are making art, manifesting their visions, and changing the world as they go. Join creativity coach, Tarot reader, and writer Cecily Sailer on a cosmic, conversational journey to help you embrace you creative and magical life!
Your Creative & Magical Life
Tarot, Parts Work & Spiritual Consent w/ Crystal Hines
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A tarot reading can feel like truth, comfort, and clarity all at once, but only when it’s held with consideration and consent. In this episode of YC&ML, I’m joined by Crystal Hines — an EMDR trainer and consultant and an IFS clinical consultant — to talk about what happens when intuition and divination meet trauma-informed care.
We get honest about the hidden load therapists carry, the constraints of therapy as an industry and institution, and why so many helpers quietly burn out from a model built on one-sided giving. Which has a lot to do with Crystal's personal shift from one-on-one therapeutic work with patients to supporting therapists with the resources and community they need and deserve.
Then we go deeper into spiritual consent: what it means, why it matters, and how religious trauma can shape our relationship with Tarot, magic, and inner knowing. Crystal tells a story of being blindsided in a psychic session and how that experience clarified her commitment to permission, intention, and frequent check-ins. If you read cards for others, practice energy work, or simply want your spiritual life to feel safer, this part of the conversation is a grounded gut-check.
We also demystify Internal Family Systems (IFS or parts work) in plain language: the managers, firefighters, and exiles, and the idea of self-energy as both intuitive presence and nervous system regulation.
We talk about gatekeeping and affordability in popular therapy modalities, plus practical ways to meet your “problem-solver” or “caretaker” parts without shaming. To close, we do a live card pull that pairs a parts-focused deck with The Tower, and Crystal offers prompts you can use for journaling and self-inquiry.
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Welcome And What To Expect
SPEAKER_00Hello, creative spirits. Welcome to another episode. I am excited to have another episode for you. This episode was recorded 10 months ago in October of 2025. So it has been aging, ripening in the digital uh chambers for some time, and I hope it is potent for you here and now. I have a wonderful guest today, and we will be more thoroughly introduced as the episode begins. I recorded the interview just like one full episode script, so I don't want to be too redundant here, but I do want to give you just a little rundown of what you can expect in this episode with Crystal Heinz, who is an approved clinical consultant, an EMDR-approved trainer, an IFS-approved trainer, a complex trauma survivor business. It's called Align, which supports therapists in doing their work. And in this episode, we talk about some of that weight that therapists carry from helping their clients shoulder the weight of their own trauma. And also the many constraints and limitations that therapists experience and their practice. Many therapists are undercover impacts and healers, whether they know it or not. And working as a clinical therapist comes with a lot of expectations, conformity, clinical standards. And sometimes that's kind of feel limiting, sometimes that's kind of feel isolating. And so that's really work to switch from being a therapist herself and working directly with clients to working with therapists and supporting them in processing their first hand and secondary trauma and feeling supported in their own practice. We also get into spiritual consent and boundaries and why trauma-informed approaches are important in intuitive work. We talk about religious trauma and growing up in rigid, authoritative, ideological faith, many of which come with are baked into that faith is a fear of terror, fear of intuitive practice. We also talk about IFS, which is internal family system, something that Crystal specializes in, the notion that there are many parts of the self existing inside of us, and connecting with those different parts at different times can help us integrate and come into what IFS practitioners call self-energy, which Crystal really helps us demystify and simplify. Crystal also talks about some accessible ways you can work with your parts, and we talk about how tarot can be a supportive practice for parts work. And we do a little card pull at the end. Crystal has an amazing deck that is parts work focused. I don't own this deck because I have this conversation with Crystal, and once a week I pull a card from this deck along with a card from a few other decks. That's part of my weekly ritual on Monday. So thank you to Crystal for showing me this deck that I think is really interesting to work with. So I hope you'll stick around. I hope you'll listen. I hope you enjoy it. I hope there's something beautiful and supportive here for you. And after this, I'm just gonna let that interview play and take its course. And I'll have new episodes for you soon. As I've discussed before, those are still cooking and they are ready to come out of the oven for you. So stay tuned and enjoy this one. If you have any thoughts or feedback, you can send a message through that link in the description. And if these episodes help support you, I'd love it if you can leave a rating that helps other folks find us. All right, thanks so much. Enjoy.
Tarot Through IFS Lenses
SPEAKER_00Today we're exploring the tarot through multiple lenses, but one of them is through parts work and internal family systems. And I'm joined by a wonderful guest, Crystal Hines, who was introduced to me by friend of the pod, Ariana Smith, who's um been featured in a previous episode and who you will hear from again. And Crystal is a recognized thought leader who actively contributes to the advancement of mental health practice through her presentations, published resources, and educational workshops. She is trained at the highest levels in both eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing, or EMDR, and internal family systems, or IFS, which is also parts work, holding credentials as an EMDRIA approved trainer and consultant, and an IFSI approved clinical consultant. Crystal's style as a healer is rooted in intuitive wisdom informed by her own experience. She is open about being a complex trauma survivor with an A score of 10. That's the high, is that the highest one? Yes, it is. I'm just kidding. Um and she embraces the value of being a client herself. She believes that each person is the expert of their own life and healing journey and is passionate about empowering others to tap into their inner knowing. Crystal, welcome to the show. I'm so glad to have you here. Thank you for joining me.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for having me and for Ari introducing us. I've been looking forward to it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Burnout And Supporting Therapists
SPEAKER_00Well, I just read your bio, but I wonder what else you would like to share about yourself and your work at this time, at this moment.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah. So I care a lot about the humanness of being a therapist and how that, how our experiences really shape how we show up as therapists. And through my own kind of burnout prevention recovery cycle that feels like a never-ending flow of exploring for me, I got to a place at the end of 2022 and rebranded my business to what it is now, which is 100% focused on supporting therapists. So now I do therapy for therapists, supervision, groups, trainings, consultation. Um yeah, because this work is hard, especially right now. And we need spaces where we can be fully seen.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Yeah, and I love this um, the humanness of being a therapist. And I feel like there's like a portal to a whole other episode, possibly, because I know multiple therapists that I know are struggling with like the constraints of the of therapy as like an institution and a regulated profession. And the way that that reinforces a kind of like non-humanness, yeah, not entirely, but it's like the therapist is supposed to be sort of like shrouded and like kind of impersonal and a mirror.
SPEAKER_02Neutral.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I think a lot of therapists, especially the kind that I know are like deeply sensitive, have been on their own healing journeys, actually have like a lot to share with their clients that probably comes from personal experience, but they feel like they can't go there because it's not appropriate according to the rules. So um, yeah, what a beautiful pivot. And I'm curious, therapists certainly do need it. I'm curious what what got you there.
SPEAKER_02Uh I mean, a lot of that was um so prior to that rebrand, I was specializing in doing complex trauma work and then also had a business partner and a whole group practice, and then COVID happened and babies happened and things really shifted. And then I was like doing virtual sessions, like hour after hour, day after day of like complex trauma work. I was like, oh my gosh, is this my life forever? It just felt like it was never gonna end. And then luckily through some of my um my IFS journey, like learning IFS as a therapist, but also from the client side of it, um, I had this experience where I could be in touch with parts of me, uh, therapist parts of me, parts of me that essentially uh led me down a path to become a therapist. I was able to be with these parts and really understand kind of what was going on for them and um what they needed. And essentially through that uh came this realization that I needed more reciprocity in relationships. And as a therapist, inherently, like you were just naming the rules and things on therapist, that therapist-client relationship is really one-sided. It's supposed to be, right? Because we're holding the space in the container. Uh and doing that day in and day out was really taking a toll on me. And my parts are like, we need more connection, like true reciprocity in relationships. And so, yeah, from there I was like, oh, well, how can I shift my business so that I can still be in this field and not completely like burn out and have to, you know, stop being a therapist. So that's a little, a little bit of how I got there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that that makes sense. And it feels like kind of an intuitive and creative problem solving journey that probably came from like deep within to give you an answer to that question. Yeah, and I think that just shows like once we clarify those questions, like how can I have this thing that I feel like is really missing, then these like deeper inner parts and creative energy and intuition can they get to work and they give you they give you a path.
SPEAKER_02So that's exactly yeah, and I'll just say one more thing to add within the field of therapy, we're kind of limited in a lot of the things that we can do because of all the rules, and a lot of it can be really stifling and not feel great. And because I'm obsessed with EMDR and IFS, I've just kept learning to a point where I can do consultation and trainings and consultation relationship, I can do it with my friends. It can be like truly reciprocal. And so that was one of the things that like really clicked for me and was like, okay, I can do this. Uh, there are ways that I can show up in a reciprocal way, and I keep a small caseload of clients that I still support.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it seems like especially like as you get deeper into your work, we come to a point sometimes where it's like yes, I want to help people with complex trauma, but not in this like kind of like factory model. And maybe I can help the helpers. And also the helpers have um, you know, more fluency and training in what they're exploring themselves. So you probably have a bit of a different exchange with the therapist, not to like disparage just like everyday therapy clients. But yeah, the therapists need that training and support too. And I imagine because of like what I was describing very generally, that there's something very refreshing about working with a therapist who's also intuitive and interested in intuition and magic and divination and feeling like that can become part of the healing process more openly, or just like the the maintenance of life process more openly. To that point, I'm curious.
How Tarot Found Crystal
SPEAKER_00We are here uh because you're a tarot person, and I'm curious how you came to know the tarot or how the tarot came to uh land in your life and how you're using it these days.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's more like how tarot found me, right? Um yeah, so I was gifted a deck back in 2017, and it was right when I started my group practice with my business partner at the time, and we had a small team of people, and one of the people there was further along on her spiritual journey, and she was someone I really trusted and admired, and she um purchased a deck for me. I should get that one out. Kim Crayons. I love Kim Crayons, and so the the spirit animal one was my first ever deck in 2017, and for me, that was a really safe way in to Oracle decks and to being open to more of the like esoteric spiritual side of things because animals are really like safe for me and my parts, and so yeah, that deck has like a really special place in my heart, and her and my business partner were both kind of further along spiritually, and I really trusted them. And so for me, that like safety in relationship and the safety with animals was like essential to be able to explore some of that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I imagine it's been part of the the process of transition that you've had in your work as well, and I know you bring tarot into your work at times, and I'm curious what that looks like and how you decided to do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So I use tarot in lots of different ways, and it's been uh it's evolved over the years, of course, and will continue to evolve. And first it was, and I still do this ritual. Every New Year's Day, I love New Year's, I love beginnings, I love Mondays. I really like beginnings and the energy of that. And so every New Year's Day I pull, I use the my three decks that are like I have really close relationship with these three decks. I pull a spread for the year to be around business visioning mostly and some relational stuff. And it's a uh business retreat that I do every year that I started in 2017. So every New Year's Day I leave for a few days and do that kind of reflective visioning and do my spread for the year. And so that's a ritual I've kept going with me in my business. And every month I reflect on the past month and what the cards uh, you know, showed me for the month, and then I look ahead at the next month and what you know the messages are moving forward, and I also look at the year as a whole too. And so January 1st is intense with three decks and looking at the whole thing and the big picture, which I love doing, and then each month getting to reflect in that way. So that's a big part of how I bring tarot into business. But I can talk about therapists too, if you want. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure. I'll comment really quick that I do a similar process. And last year in the new year, did a workshop to guide folks through that. And yeah, it's really interesting. It's a lot of information. It's like more than you can digest in one sitting. But then of course you get to like live out the year and kind of rediscover those cards and see what they're what the hell they're talking about. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02I love it. Yeah, it's such a it is really intense that day, but then it's such a like anchoring thing for me each month. And I look forward to it every year. So yeah. And then so 2017 was my first introduction, and then um there were a lots of other kinds of spiritual healings and things I was exploring during that year and the following year, which was just like opening up a lot of safety inside of me. And so I got to a level of like uh readings with my friends and just like talking about the decks and being excited about it. And then this was back in 2018, 2019, where I was really feeling that calling to hold space for therapists, and it was later that I rebranded into that, but uh was really just feeling that calling to hold space for therapists, and I created a monthly group of tarot readings for therapists at my actually in person at my office space before COVID times. And uh it was lovely. Therapists would come and I'd have candles lit and we'd all kind of sit around. And essentially uh it helped me to get clear about spiritual consent, which is something I know we'll we'll talk about in a little bit, and how to connect with like people's energy while staying grounded in my energy and really embracing each person's intuitive wisdom and like what what is the meaning that they are making from the deck? Like, I'm not the expert on your system, but I can hold space and help you make meaning for that. And it was just really special and really powerful for therapists to be held in that way by me, and then by the group witnessing the reading. Yeah, so that was like my first time offering it to therapist and uh babies in COVID. So I have three little children, side note. So I have a five-year-old, three-year-old, and a one-year-old, all girls. First one was born in April 2020. So a lot of life has happened. Um since then. And anyway, fast forward to when I rebranded, um, I'm like, yeah, this, I'm gonna put this offering back up on my new website and services for therapists.
Rituals For Business And Life
SPEAKER_02And so now I do um tea and tarot for my small team of people uh at my business align. So once a month we chat and then I do a reading for the group. And um I also do tarot readings for any therapists who just want them. Often they're business focused because I love the like business coaching side of things. And then I have some uh clients, therapist clients who we love to bring in tarot into the work that we're doing. So yeah, a few different ways. Beautiful.
SPEAKER_00And I love this, yeah, I love this phrase spiritual consent, which you mentioned first to me in our email exchange. And I'd really love to hear more about what that means to you and how that informs your work or your practice with tarot.
Spiritual Consent And Boundaries
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, something that uh matters to me a lot, and that comes from my religious and spiritual trauma, and I won't get into all of that here, but essentially I grew up in the panhandle of Florida, like Southern Baptist vibe. And then my family, like ancestral lineage, there's a lot of religious spiritual trauma. And so because of that experience of um essentially being told not to trust myself and my intuition and um what I think and feel, right? It's you know, been told that other people know what's best for me. I am a fighter by nature, and so I've challenged that my whole life. And I have really strong protective parts of me that get very um wary and skeptical of any any healer, regardless of from whatever orientation they're coming from. But any healer who tries to say that they know what's best or that they're the expert in anything or any kind of like power differential or condescending type of energy, my parts are like, nope. And I I had an experience that really was upsetting to me, which really uh helped me go a bit deeper into understanding spiritual consent and what it means to me. So I had a bachelorette weekend. I'll just tell this story real quick. It was before I got married, and we went, I won't say all the details of it just to protect confidentiality and stuff, but we went and saw a psychic. And this was like earlier on when I was like, you know, trying to get more open to the spiritual side of things, and mostly I was like, this will just be fun and silly. And so I go in to see the psychic, and right away she starts, you know, putting a bunch of tarot cards out there, and then channeled my mother. My mother has passed, and I have a kind of rocky relationship with her, and the psychic channeled my mother and started telling me so much information, and essentially I was like um kind of bombarded with all of this without any communication about what was the intention of the session, you know, not asking any permission or anything. She just like said all this stuff, and it really shook me. I was I was pretty upset actually by the information that she sent. And when I was processing it with some of my trusted friends, they're like, Yeah, I think I think she was a medium and she was channeling your mom, but she didn't ask your permission for that. And then so I felt really violated and was like, no, no healer should ever do anything like that, regardless of what their gifts are. And so this kind of goes back to how important like lived experiences for me, right? When I feel something and my knowing inside is like, that's fucked up. Uh, I'm gonna do this differently, and um really make it clear anytime I'm offering, especially a more spiritual intuitive kind of service. I'm gonna make it very clear what the intention is, what the relationship is, that they have choice the entire time. I'm going to regularly check in about how is this feeling for you? Regularly check in for permission, um, always giving choice throughout the process. And so yeah, I'm like fired up just remembering that experience, but it has really it has helped really shape like how clear I am about that when I do work with people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that would be um quite a shock, especially in the midst of like a fun weekend with your girlfriends, and then here's your mom's spirit, apparently, like with all kinds of things to say. Um no one checking with you.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and that was before I had the um discernment that I have now from listening to my parts and their wisdom. That was like earlier on in my journey with that, and so yeah, and living in Colorado, uh, I live outside of Boulder, and there's a lot of like spiritual bypassing stuff that happens out here and a lot of things that I get like prickly about, so it's kind of a vibe out here. Not that everyone is like that, but I am wary.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I think it's so important, and even what you said is a nice reminder to me. You know, I'm certainly like trying to tune in with my clients and sort of feel into where where the cards are taking us and how they're feeling about that. But it's also a nice reminder when we are reading cards for others that yeah, those check-ins at different points along the way are really important. And I mean, I think one thing we love about tarot is that it gets really real with us, but you know, we're not always like prepared for what they're gonna say, and that's okay. Um but yeah, just having space as well for the other in their reading to respond and like regulate and be in touch with their body as they're receiving that information.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yes, thank you for for saying all that. It's not about the um like ignoring the shadow side, right? We can really embrace that in a safe, like intentional way. Um, kind of probably because I'm a therapist and being trauma-informed, right? It's a trauma-informed way, I guess, of doing that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Religious Trauma And Intuition
SPEAKER_00I'm curious to explore with you this relationship between religion and tarot and intuition, which is like a gigantic can of worms, and kind of like, let's look at these three giant stars and like sort that out. And so we're not gonna sort it all out, but um I come my family or some of my family was raised Southern Baptist, so like you know, almost all of my ancestors like were raised in church, are from the South, but like starting with my grandparents, and then definitely my parents, there was not so much like a schism, but just like a non-participation. And so I didn't grow up going to church except for like a short time in middle school when I think my mom was kind of having like a midlife spiritual crisis. So we went to a Presbyterian church for a bit and then a Unitarian church for a bit, which of course Unitarians are like super permissive. Um and the Presbyterian church as well was um had a lot of like beautiful sentiments to share, but I had the benefit. Like on the one hand, I was sort of like spiritually unplaced, um, like I didn't have a location spiritually, but I was also kind of like spared that stuff that comes up through religion that's very um just very constraining and very rigid, and really seems to me from the outside often, I'm generalizing not in every case, but in many cases, to be, as you said, at odds with um what the body may say, what the intuition may say. Like it's very much built on this external uh authority, um kind of that like shadow side of the emperor or the hierarchy. And yeah, um it's really I'm like relieved and excited by the fact that you had these protector parts that were resisting that along the way. I think I probably would have been more passive and scared. But um what is my question, even? Yeah, I guess I'm curious about like how tarot what you noticed about your past experiences as you came to know tarot. And I think what tarot does for many of us who stay with it is that it helps us reconnect with intuition and remember and learn how it speaks to us and how it how it can support us. So it just sounds I feel like I had a had a journey of like not knowing how to use intuition to then finding it, but without the religious shackles. But I'm curious from your perspective, what comes up for you as I'm talking about this, or you know, just thinking about this the relationship between these big concepts and ideas.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, gosh, so much, like you said, these are huge concepts to unpack. Yeah, so I don't know if you know much about the Enneagram, um, but I bet some of the listeners do. I'm a eight on the Enneagram, which is a challenger. And so luckily that is part of my nature. I feel really grateful for that because I've really challenged a lot of what I grew up in. And so um that has helped me stay tethered to like coming back to myself and thinking for myself and looking through my lens rather than what everyone else around me was trying to force me to do. And of course, I took on the shame and the trauma and all of that from growing up in that culture, but I've I've always had this like anchor back to myself, and I started kind of deconstructing my relationship with Christianity uh toward the end of high school and definitely in college, and I had a whole uh like process of being as Christian, and then okay, I'm Christian, but I don't go to church. Oh, actually I'm agnostic, and then I'm like, well, that's no fun, I'm an atheist, and so just have this whole like deconstructing thing, you know, from 18 to 25-ish. And then I was like, oh, but I also am not that passionate about saying that there is no God. Atheist doesn't make sense for me either. So I just was kind of trying this all out as trying to sort through what felt right. And now, because luckily of the therapy that I've received and the work that I've done, I feel very open spiritually, and I don't need like to define it in any way. So yeah, I wanted to share a little bit about that piece and uh with tarot. Well, let me talk about intuition. So growing up in that culture and Southern Baptist kind of culture, it definitely is all about shutting down your own intuition, at least how I received it. Shutting down your own intuition. Um, you're not listening to your body. Actually, you don't know anything. God is what knows everything, right? And the people in positions of power and really patriarchal, traditional kinds of uh constructs, they know what's best for you. You do not. And so that message was given to me explicitly and implicitly, like my whole life. And so definitely had this battle inside of like, do I listen to what my intuition, what my heart, what my gut is telling me, or do I listen to what this person in this position of power is telling me? And that was repeated. Um, but I kept questioning that and I kept coming back to that anchor inside of me. But yeah, so I grew up thinking tarot was like the devil. And so, like, if you're doing, which sounds so wild to say, but people still believe that. Like, if you do tarot, you're inviting in like you know, dark spirits or the devil, um, and you're like inviting that in. And so my journey to get to tarot, luckily, I already deconstructed a lot and had a lot of safety internally and externally in my world, where I could keep coming back to what feels right for me, and then was aware of parts though that still had some fears from like really little parts, had some fears from our experiences when we were younger. Um, and then protective, like skeptical parts of like this is ridiculous. Definitely a strong skeptic is like this is just silly nonsense, would try to dismiss stuff from my deck. I'll pause there. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm just it's so amusing how like Christianity wants to reject the notion of magic. But the Bible is filled with magic. I know, and faith is kind of a magical thing. Um, a huge like it requires the suspension of disbelief and skepticism. Yeah. I mean, I know part of the spiritual process is that grappling with like skepticism and finding faith and like what that means as a human being for each of us individually, but yeah, just sort of amused uh totally chuckling with you at that a little bit. And um yeah, I can only imagine some of the resistance that would come up internally as you go on a tarot journey, even as you're consciously deciding to redefine your relationship to spirituality. And I love that you shared kind of like those different stages, like maybe I'm agnostic, and then it's like well, actually, like I am kind of into like a higher power or something. Like, what's the word for you know? And so yeah, and like atheism just doesn't seem that fun, right?
SPEAKER_02Right. It's like, well, that doesn't work, so I just keep exploring.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I love too how you have like you let it be kind of undefined or it doesn't have to be categorized. And I think that's so freeing, especially for anyone who was really like in a sort of spiritual box where everything was kind of like defined for you. And I think it also just goes to show like how challenging it is to move out of that and come overcome some of those fears and those blocks and all those things that you were told over and over again were bad, horrible, untrue, and dangerous.
IFS Basics And Self-Energy
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Maybe now is a good time to get into parts work. Okay first, will you just explain kind of an overview of what it is for anyone who's listening and hearing about it for the first time? There probably aren't too many people like that, but maybe maybe there are. And maybe we all need a refresher about right.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so parts work is kind of a general umbrella term for any any exploring of parts of self, right? And that can be done in many different ways. Uh and I don't have to get into all of the different ways, but what I gravitated towards specifically is a therapy called internal family systems. And again, because of my how much I pay attention to the lived experience of a therapist, for me, I was like deep into my ENDR work as a client and working through some of those aces and got into some attachment work. And all of a sudden, I realized I had parts. These little, little kid parts of me were showing up. And my therapist at the time um had some parts work experience. And so she was open to that. And I'm like, what the hell is this? Uh, and then did a deep dive into learning everything I could about parts work from like a therapist perspective. And uh to not say too too much therapy stuff, um, I tried a different, a few different approaches, but IFS is what fit the best for me. And I want to say too that IFS can feel a little bit culty and a little bit um activating spiritually for some people who have spiritual and religious trauma. And I definitely have still protective parts up around IFS. So I just want to say that. And I really like IFS because I love parts, but there's a lot within the IFS framework that can feel hierarchical, can have this weird like power differential. And so I name that because that's important um to say. And but through all of that, I found IFS and it's a framework to actually just be with parts of self and uh get to know them, be in relationship with them. And then there's a concept of self-energy that is unique to IFS, is that's what they call it. And it's essentially into it's intuition, it's it's our like, I don't know, true essence, it's self um is like a state of being, it's a presence, it's like an inner witness of our experiences. Um, there's a lot, a lot of ways that you can define that, the self-energy, but through self-energy being with parts and witnessing them and their pain, healing comes, and then you become kind of more integrated over time with that therapy. Um, but it's not that self-energy is better than parts energy. That's a whole thing. I actually just did a podcast about that a couple weeks ago. Um, parts energy is just as important as self-energy.
SPEAKER_00You heard it here. Yeah. Yeah. And just to kind of, and you're the expert, or well, there's no experts as we establish, but um, you are much more trained in this than than I am. And but maybe just to add that like the parts exist in they were formed in response to our circumstances and sometimes trauma. And that like, yeah, given our environment or situation, some we had to kind of like develop this as a persona or there some kind of like um distortion of true self, maybe to like navigate the situation or survive the situation, and that those parts continue to live within us, yeah um, and sometimes are activated by triggers or situations that remind that part of the past. And then we're kind of like acting from this part that may be much younger than we are now. And so parts work is like this opportunity. And I'm curious how you might if you feel like it is shadow work or like a version of shadow work, but that IFS puts a person in dialogue with like a part. Yeah. Through that dialogue and exploration, there's like a process of acknowledgement and listening and sort of understanding what that part needs, and then a kind of integration can happen where it's still a part, but it's like more on the team instead of sometimes like its own rogue actor in certain situations. Is that accurate?
SPEAKER_02Yes, you said all that really well. Yeah, I would add a couple of things, yeah, just from the IFS specific framework. Um, the idea is that uh, like Dick Schwartz calls it multiplicity of the mind. So he normal he doesn't call it that, but he normalizes multiplicity of the mind, that having parts is normal, and it's not uh that there's something wrong with us if we have parts, that that's just how humans are. We have parts of self.
SPEAKER_00We're multifaceted, exactly complex universes unto ourselves.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly. And so he really helped to normalize that, and uh so through the context of IFS, we all have parts. They it's like they're kind of in waiting when we're born to develop to help us function in our day-to-day. So we have lots of parts. Parts are like an energy of doing. There are lots of parts that we have that help us just function in our day that aren't burdened with pain and shame and trauma. But because we're human and we do experience a lot of adversities on the regular, some people more than others, um, our parts can take on really protective roles to try. Essentially, these protective parts are trying. Trying to help us to not feel the pain of usually really young wounded parts who were shamed or told that they were bad in some way when they were younger. And then we have these protectors that kind of come in and try to keep us from feeling more pain. And then the idea in IFS is these protective parts who become overburdened can block our access to self-energy. And so then we become like our parts kind of take us over. Yeah. Versus us being in the driver's seat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then we have more of like an emergency response team that's kind of things versus like I am centered, I am grounded, I choose to show up in this way.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yeah. And there's a process in IFS of um helping, it takes some time, but once these parts feel really seen and understood and witnessed, there's a process of unburdening, is what it's called, where these parts can release their pain. It's just pretty cool, powerful stuff. The parts don't go away and the protectors don't necessarily stop their job unless they want to, but there's just more choice. There's more choice, and um, you're just more integrated.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And is it fair to say I know Dick Schwartz, who uh wrote the book No Bad Parts, which is a nice introduction to internal family systems, and these two terms are basically synonymous. Um so he's really like, yeah, like kind of created this element, this arm of therapy that uses this modality. But is it fair to say that like the idea behind it is quite old and probably practiced by indigenous people who would do things like soul retrieval and absolutely okay.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I would say uh Dick Schwartz was able to kind of create a therapeutic modality that is evidence-based and he does research and all of that, um, but certainly borrows from shamanism, indigenous practices. It this does not come from him. He created this therapy, but parts work, he did not create that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. And I wanted to jump back really quick just to define for folks what aces are. This is the adverse childhood experiences survey.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And so it's a list of like 10. When I first discovered this too, I was like, holy shit. Because it really allows it's like a list of 10 statements that would, you know, you can sort of look at them to see if your life lines up with any of these experiences. And this I encountered it for the first time as I was starting to learn more about trauma beyond just the idea that like big traumatic experience, you know, creates like imprint in the body, in the nervous system, into this perspective that trauma can be much more subtle. It can be a like low-grade, persistent thing, it can be um something that's very normalized, like divorce between your parents is super common, but for different people under different circumstances, those kinds of experiences can be can have lasting trauma. So that's what ACES is. It's the adverse childhood experiences survey. And um, if you haven't checked it out, you can just find it on the internet. I would go if you're ready, if you're centered, if you're regulated, if you work with a therapist, talk to them about it first, perhaps. But um, yeah, a really important framework, I think, for helping people realize that, oh, maybe I have experienced more trauma than I realized before. And this might explain, you know, why I maybe have some of these parts that are doing some of these things.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And I'll add one piece. I'm glad you went back to that. Um, what's interesting and also like hard to be with about this study is they compared the number of ACEs that a person has with medical, like physical health problems in adulthood. Um, and really looking at the impact of that on our bodies, right? And we can all understand this kind of intuitively, like, oh, well, yeah, that makes sense. At least maybe I can because therapists or people that really think and feel deeply. Um, but they actually did it in a way where you can look at data, right? Data and numbers, um, where it's hard to ignore that, you know. And so, yeah, how it impick impacts us emotionally, of course, and then our physical health too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm glad you brought that
Gatekeeping And Training Bottlenecks
SPEAKER_00up. And then I wanted to inquire a little bit more about this uh description of IFS as like um, I don't know, yeah, this like space within the therapeutic industry, we could say. And you described it as maybe a little culty or activating. And I'm thinking for me, that brought up something like like I've studied a little bit of whole what's called holotropic breath work, which was developed by a guy named Stan Groff, who realized that people coming out of hallucinogenic experiences like LSD would do a certain kind of breath to main, they would like naturally do this as they were kind of coming down as a way to extend their time in this expanded state of consciousness. And so he developed this whole kind of like protocol that's actually like simple when you practice it. Like it it's not um, it's like a kind of breath you do, and then music plays, and you have this like expanded consciousness experience where the inner healer does some things for you. But like in the develop, so you know, this is probably like a kind of breath that people were doing when they were going on plant journeys, you know, before the development of LSD for like thousands of years. And then here comes this like Westerner dude who's like, I figured this out and I've turned it into this protocol. And now, if you want to do it, you gotta come train with me. And it's a lot of hours and it's a lot of money. And so it becomes, and I'm really projecting on uh I'm projecting, I'm not saying this is what you're talking about, but I want to do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's very similar.
SPEAKER_00Give this example as like something that happens, and I think too, maybe that's a thing that um starts to kind of wear on therapists of a certain stripe that like there's a whole monetized industry around getting more trained, or like how credentialed you have to be, or a threshold you know, you have to, which isn't maybe exclusively about just preparing you to be a responsible steward of the work, but is meant to kind of like yeah, create this sense of like control over the intellectual property. Yes. Um, okay, I'm saying a lot and pause there.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, I love it. Yeah, it's kind of like pyramid scheme in EMDR and IFS. And I am an EMDR trainer and consultant, and I'm an IFS consultant. And so I name this with like being aware of I carry those certificates and titles, and I'm very open about this like polarity inside of me of like, gosh, what the hell are we doing here? So you get in both of the, I'll just talk about IFS actually. It I mean what's cool about Dick Schwartz is he really authentically kind of stumbled upon parts and then really did develop a protocol that can be like measured and researched and all of that. And it is very hard to get trained. It's very, very hard to get in to a training, first of all. And even if you do have the time and you get lucky to get in, there was before I finished that for years, there was a lottery system. And it was literally like just people applying to this lottery system over and over and over and over and over again, just to have the chance to apply to get into a level one and then not get in. They have since changed that to their credit. They really are trying to do better in some of their policies and the way that people get trained, but it's very hard to get in and it is very expensive. And a level one training, the last time I checked is 92 hours. Um, and therapists call these CEs, 92 CEs, and it's like four to five thousand dollars. That's a lot, and that's a level one training, and as of right now, you cannot say that you're IFS trained, period, unless you go through the institute. And so they there is a huge level of gatekeeping that's happened and happening. Um, so in that way it's kind of colty, and also if you get in and you get level one trained, then there's like a level two and a level three, and then you can get certified if you do these things and pay more money, right? Right, and that doesn't feel good for a lot of people, and I get that it's similar with EMDR, but EMDR is much more accessible to therapists, um, but it's still a like hierarchical do this basic training, then get certified, then become a consultant in training and pay a lot of money along the way. And so I think that is just a fair critique and important to say out loud. And I continue to check in with my parts like all the time about how I choose to show up in these institutions. Yeah, it's a conflict for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, part of like it means that primarily people with privilege have access.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And so primarily people with privilege are providing therapy and are in charge of who gets to provide therapy and um and yeah, when you're sort of like qualified for something or not. And I certainly see the necessity for training and oversight. And I know we all live in capitalism, and so everyone needs to make money. And you were talking earlier about like reciprocity and exchange and money, unfortunately, or fortunate, I don't know, depending how you look at it, is part of that. But yeah, these they become these like really kind of like tight, expensive bottlenecks for this the these kinds of like healing modalities that having fits forever. Yeah, yeah, that humans just kind of naturally knew how to do. Not every human knew how to do it, and yeah, healers and leaders and guides, but yeah, like someone who like some indigenous shaman who's been like doing parts work for people for like 30 years would have to go do this insane amount of stuff to like become IFS certified, and they may never want that, but right, yeah, and that doesn't, you know, that's not to disparage the modality itself, like I think, or any of these modalities. I know many people who found all of these very helpful, and I find parts work very intriguing. Um but yeah, I'm just I'm glad we can touch on that, and just something for people to notice as you're considering, if you're considering your own path, doing healing work um or holding space and guiding people, you know, the different options that are available and things to look out for and just notice and yeah, and think about your own positionality in those spaces of like naming that when it feels possible, or you know, just depending on your own perspective on it. But yes. Yeah, I was wondering if we could. Oh, sorry, do you want to add on? Sorry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if you're open. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, yeah. One other thing I'd love to add on is um the back to like how it can feel culty a little bit, is um this concept of self-energy, uh in some like some trainers and some like content and just different things that we can consume about IFS, different experiences and trainings. It can feel like um self has to be this like bigger spiritual kind of concept, which I feel good about at this point. Obviously, we're talking about this stuff in this podcast, but not that doesn't fit for everybody, and self-energy does not have to be this bigger universal spiritual context, or this concept rather. It for me is also a regulated nervous system. When we're like and I'm into polyvagal theory. Um, so when we're connected to our ventral vagal circuit where we have a we're in our window of tolerance, like we have access to self-energy. It doesn't have to be this bigger spiritual kind of concept, and it can be a container to explore spirit spiritual stuff for sure in IFS. There's a lot of spiritual work you can do. But I've talked with a lot of colleagues and a lot of people about how that doesn't feel great, and there can be this like overemphasis of self-energy, like parts energy is bad, which is harmful, yeah, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, and just like kind of a probably residual effect of some of the like hierarchical and binary thinking in our culture.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yep.
Common Parts And Their Roles
SPEAKER_00Could you give an example of a part either that you've worked with or you see like clients working with a lot? And I know part of it is like we can come up for our own with our own names for these parts, which is kind of like fun and creative and gives us a sense of ownership. But there may, you know, like there's for me, probably like a good girl part that's like needed to get A's or like do well in school, and maybe is a people pleaser, or maybe that's a separate part. I but they work together. I don't know. But yeah, just some examples of like of parts, yes, parts, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So skeptic, there's strong people have strong skeptic parts, which I love. I really welcome them. Um, really like uh intellectual, rational parts who come in with really strong like thoughts often go hand in hand with skeptics. Um can have the parts that um want us to do everything perfectly. They're trying to keep us from making a mistake so we don't feel shame, right? Um they're definitely the people pleasers. There's so in IFS, there's um managers, those are all managers that I just named, some examples, worriers, inner critics. Yeah, a lot of parts that get us like in our heads. Managers are doing everything everything they can proactively to keep us from feeling pain. And then we have firefighters who are reactive and they come in and shut down the pain. I don't love the terms, but that's what it is. And some of those parts are like um dissociation, rage, parts that self-harm or use uh substances, uh, really impulsive parts. So they're coming in, they're like, oh, we're not gonna feel any of that, and they shut it all down. And then there are parts that are called exiles, and these are usually the young ones. Um, I don't like the term exiles, but essentially they're the trauma holders, they're the ones actually holding the pain of our experiences. So these other parts are trying to keep all of that at bay. Yeah, those are yeah, some examples.
SPEAKER_00That's great. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Using Tarot To Meet Parts
SPEAKER_00And then I'm curious how you see if you see a connection between tarot, which is to me a technology that represents the and reflects the human experience and IFS or parts work. Is it a tool we can use in part? Do you use it in parts work? Do you see a how do you see any connection there, if at all?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, my biggest, I think my biggest connection with tarot and um IFS and parts work is so interesting when I look at kind of my journey with both, kind of go alongside each other. So that probably really informs me. Um, but that like anchoring back to myself and coming back to like my intuition and my heart, my creativity, my magic, um, my flow, like all of that is self-energy. And when I'm doing a reading for myself or others, I am like connecting and um um expanding my self-energy, which we could think of in a spiritual context, it that resonates for me personally, but it doesn't have to for everybody. Um, so when I'm doing that, then when I am setting the intention for the deck and to get the wisdom from the cards, it's it's like you can be in that like flow, that flow state. Whereas if and my parts are great, my parts can be here and hang out and inform me and all of that. Um, and in fact, we can like ask parts to come up and see what they're wanting to know from the deck as one example. Parts have agendas, so that's another thing. Parts have agendas, they want something, they want to do something. Self is just this like open flow kind of state. And so when when I can really expand myself energy, I can like the magic that comes from the deck is just really powerful. I don't know. Um, I hesitate to say that word, but yeah, it's more open, more expansive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I think that's um a really important point. How even just the practice of working with the cards, whatever questions you ask or whatever the cards say, just like coming to the cards, get like kind of transitioning out of like running around through your life, it's still to be in a moment of inquiry and reflection.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00And we start to like slow down our nervous system, you know, usually unless we're like super activated or something, might respond to the fact that we're getting our deck and we're sitting and we're looking inward or looking inward and also I think looking like upward, like to spirit, however, wherever I don't know that spirit only exists up. Um exists in all things, in my opinion, in my in my cosmology, I guess. But um yeah, and that that can just help us bring bring ourselves into self-energy. I think that's a really great like analogy and connection. And I guess I'm wondering too, if like you know, and maybe we can try this here together or something, but if like if we can pull a card to see to represent a part that might need attention and then do something with that, like totally, yes.
SPEAKER_02And there's do I have this deck? There's another deck too that can call oh yeah, it's not it's not tarot or oracle, but I love it. Interactive cards. This is a very well used.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's four parts work.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and it's a whole deck with just a bunch of different. Um images that can represent parts. And it's a way to like externalize parts and do parts work. So yeah, that exists as well to do parts work with a deck, but also absolutely with tarot.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02And that's, I mean, one of the things I love about tarot and IFS and all that we're talking is how much how you can just flow in creativity, right? It's like so much that you can do with it.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Live Card Pull And Prompts
SPEAKER_00Would you be, I'm curious, could we would you be willing to pull a card for me from that deck? And I'll pull one from my tarot deck and we'll see if they talk to each other or just like see what happens.
SPEAKER_02From the parts deck?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh yes. Yes. I had my other tarot deck ready, but I love this one too.
SPEAKER_00And then maybe you'll know like the good questions me as the guinea pig or a person in general could like ask themselves as they maybe pay attention to a part.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Okay, I love this. I'm gonna just take a moment to connect with this deck.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02And clear the deck and set an intention. And the intention being connecting with a part of you that wants to be seen right now. Does that feel right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I think.
SPEAKER_02And it's okay if I take a few moments here.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02And I have a I usually anytime I do a reading, I kind of tell people my process, part of that consent piece where I have a ritual around kind of clearing, clearing the deck and like expanding my energy and setting intention.
SPEAKER_01I'm doing that right now. Thank you. Okay, shuffle. I'm so curious to see what you pick too. Oh yeah. And what I pick and see see how it overlaps.
SPEAKER_02And I also love while I'm shuffling these, I love the relationship that I build with my decks, like that connection um that I feel, and like the memories that the decks contain. I just love it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I really emphasize that it's like it's a relationship. And I feel like each deck has a different personality that has like something to do with the creator, but something, and I mean the creator of the deck, and I guess the creator. Um, and but also like kind of the life force of the deck itself as a creation and how it wants to talk to you. Like my experience with the wild unknown was like, and I love Kim Crans too. Like, I have that animal spirit deck, I have the um wild unknown archetypes deck, but the wild unknown tarot felt really like hardcore. I was just like, oh like like the plus the one that I have, yeah. Yeah, um, I was like, this is kind of like edgy or like harsh or something. It was just like was not pulling any punches. So yeah, but and Kim Crans also has an amazing podcast called Dolphins at Midnight, which I highly recommend.
SPEAKER_02Oh okay, yeah. Um, this is ready. Okay. And I wanna here we go. Do you feel ready?
SPEAKER_00I'm ready.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I'm just gonna pull from the talk.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. So it's a person at the doorstep with a like some overalls, some like work boots. They're they have like a little case in their arm. They have a belt around them with like pouches and all the stuff in the belt. They have a life ring they're holding under one arm, they've got a headlamp, like a backpack. They're doing a lot, and they have a little animal companion. And I don't, I can't, I can see the life ring. I don't know what the what do the words say on the um the little kit?
SPEAKER_02Oh, it says problem solving kit. Oh, yes. There's also a necklace with a peace sign.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um, a backpack that they're holding with like a teddy bear and plants and food, it looks like. Yeah. Yeah. Tools, like a tool belt.
SPEAKER_00Um, what comes up for you when you yeah, that's me like trying to take care of a lot of things. Like I'm a caregiver for my father who's housebound and who lives close. So it's, you know, like groceries and laundry and taking out the trash and resetting the coffee pot and other things. And then yeah, I kind of I've also like Airbnb being my home. So I live mostly with my partner, but I I have a Saturn in Virgo, so like I will clean, like I'm cleaning too much. So I have to clean my house like extensively for guests, and kind of like run back and forth and like run to my dad. And then there's like, you know, the business and the space I'm holding for people, and just trying to be caring, but also especially in the last week, being like, I am bedraggled, I am run ragged, and the card I pulled was the tower. Oh my goodness, which is my card of the year, my victory has the theme of the year. So um, this is super rich, super interesting. Oh yes. So, what do I do now? What are some like journaling prompts or something I need to go do with all of this?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I just am gonna reflect a little back if that feels well. Let me check. Does that feel okay if I reflect some back? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like struck by all that you said and this image of the like welcome that like this person is coming like to the house or you know, space of someone else to come in and do so much for them. Like doing that for your dad, doing that with your Airbnb, doing that with your business, and probably in a lot of other relationships, um, really there to do a lot for others. And that I'm sure is like self-energy too, but also exhausting. And then that makes me curious about how that relates with the tower, and if something might shake that up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like especially the last couple of weeks have been busy, like you know, also hosting, putting on an event and like moderating a liter, like a book talk. And um, I feel like there was something else last week too. And um, yeah, it's just like this isn't sustainable. I'm like tired in my bones, and I certainly also um resonated with what you were talking about at the beginning of our conversation around desiring reciprocity and like generosity is a big value of mine, and like if I feel able, I want to be able to help. But yeah, it's like that's part of my spirit, but then there's also a part that is over. Yes, and so it's really it's so hard to discern when I'm in like one energy or the other one, except maybe it's like, oh, I'm getting resentful, or oh, I'm getting annoyed, or oh, I'm getting really tired. Um, and maybe that's the part and not the self.
SPEAKER_02So yes, and um, I can give you prompts for later, or you can even do it right now, depending on what you're feeling open to. But my next thing would be can you sense in to this part in or around your body and really feel this part who's doing so much for everyone else? Can you find this part in or around your body and kind of focus in on them? So it's like a tuning in, um, and then really wanting to understand like tell me more, tell me more about all that you're doing and all that you're holding. Who are you? How long have you been doing this job of caring for others or whatever the job is for this part?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm writing this down. I think our conversation's getting, you know, about to our time. So I'm just for everyone listening, I'm willing to go here right now, but time-wise, I think we can. So I'm writing this down so I can do this, and I'm going to put these same questions in the episode description. So if people, you know, want to explore a little bit of parts work on their own. We have tuning into the body, seeing where that energy is located in the body, um, where the body might be holding the energy of that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so it's just like sensing into it, seeing what details come up as you do. Um, I should add parts can show up in many different ways to communicate. Not everyone sees them visually, and that's okay. Um, they can show up through images, through emotions, through thoughts, through body sensations. So it's just a tuning in to see what's there. And then you just like let your curiosity kind of guide the way of like, tell me more about you. What is your job? How long have you been doing it? You kind of like interview the part. But a really important question to ask is what are you concerned will happen if you don't do this job? There's usually some kind of fear or concern underneath, like why they feel like they have to keep doing it at the level that they are. Yeah. And then one a good follow-up is like after you're asking some of these questions, is to check in with yourself and say, like, how am I feeling towards this part right now? And check and see if there's are you feeling open-hearted? Are you feeling interested, compassionate, um, wanting to know more? Um, if you're noticing any of that, that would be self-energy that you would extend to the part and just let them know, like, that you're getting it, what you're feeling toward them. And then in that like relational space, like magic happens in that witnessing. Sometimes, though, when we check in about how we're feeling, we're like, oh, I'm so tired of that part. Get out of here. So that's another part, which is okay. And we just welcome that part.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Okay, that's super helpful. Uh, I love all of this. It's so fascinating. I mean, it shouldn't surprise me, but yeah, you just like get the cards you need to get when you have them. And like, this is the thing that I think like I'm feeling most at this moment as a thing that feels heavy or challenging, or like, I don't actually know how to solve this or in the moment, or how to like pull back, or which things to pull back from. So this feels like a really beautiful way to ask the expert inside me who's like who has some needs and has some like desires. So I really appreciate you um doing this experiment with me and uh sharing these like steps of exploration.
SPEAKER_01Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for um letting me kind of get to know that part a little bit and drop into that more like vulnerable space.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've got to get this deck too because it's like it's the second I saw that image of this person just like wearing all this stuff and carrying all this stuff. And it's kind of funny because like in the photo, it look like the person looks sort of like enthusiastic or like, here's the yeah, like smiling, like I'm here to do the thing. And except it's not like a plumber who fixes just one thing, it's like they got all the right. Um, so yeah, it's just like when you see it in an image, it like just like with tarot, it hits you someplace deeper. Absolutely. That's really cool. And it's this is really helpful as well because I pulled the towers of my theme card for the year when I was doing like my whole big spread. And then I'm like, oh great, okay, where's this gonna go? Is it gonna be like a gigantic explosion? Is it gonna be more subtle inside of me? And I've been kind of like all year, I'm like, is this it? Is this it? And you know, we only have a few more months left, but it does like this helps me see like it is an internal. I mean, there's external forces, but this is a like internal uh thing that needs to be dismantled in order for something else to happen or for me to move toward the things that I'm really wanting and desiring and want to have energy for.
SPEAKER_02So absolutely how freaking cool that's those were Joe's just both picked. That's really cool.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
Resources And Closing Invitations
SPEAKER_00So yeah, will you tell us anything? You know, where would you like people to find you? Or is there a resource for people to start with? What about our non-therapist listeners? What do you have people to know about you as we start to wrap up?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, I am gonna give you the link for I have a resource page that has a bunch of freebies um that are IFS related and others, and a lot of my stuff is for therapist specifically. Um, but anyone could find some of those things helpful. And you know, I love doing tarot. And if anyone wants to do a deep dive with tarot and parts, um, that would be awesome. And so they can schedule on my website like a free 30-minute consult. And I'm open to anyone who's interested in that.
SPEAKER_00Oh, amazing! I might go sign myself up for that. Yay. Um, well, Crystal, thank you so much. I will include, yes, links to your site and um any other places you inhabit digitally. And I'm so glad you came on the show. I'm so glad to talk to you and to share all of this beautiful insight and information with listeners. So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me. This has been, I gosh, feel so lucky to talk about this stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so fun, right? Yeah, it's rich. Yeah, yes. And to all the listeners out there, thank you for uh tuning in. Thank you for engaging with magic and tarot and creativity. And I hope this episode brought you some insight, something juicy for your life. And as ever, I invite you to join my email list where you can hear about the things I'm offering, the courses that are coming up, the learning community, my tarot for creative spirits book, things like this. Um, you'll just be way more in the know if you hop on that list. So come find me there and I hope to connect with you in some way soon. And until next time, please continue to enjoy your creative and magical life.