Your Creative & Magical Life

Reading Tarot in Groups, Play Personalities & Growing Up in Alaska w/ Arianna Smith

• Cecily Sailer / Arianna Smith

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Cecily welcomes back to the show Ariana Smith — twin, Alaskan homestead kid, IFS-certified therapist, copywriter, and professional tarot reader — to explore how place, family, and parts work can shape a creative and magical life. We wander through Alaska’s quiet woods and loud storms, talk nervous systems and city overload, and laugh about moose logic while tracing how nature trained us to notice what others miss.

Then we flip the spread to group tarot. Reading for more than one person adds a witness, a third perspective who can validate, challenge, and playfully call in truth. We share real stories of family and group readings, and discuss the subtle ethics that make shared sessions feel safe. You’ll hear how certain card pairings — like Judgment and The Empress — speak like a creative bullhorn, and why good readings often expand complexity instead of forcing false clarity.

We also get into the act and necessity of play and explore the various “play personalities,” like director, storyteller, explorer, and collector. Discover simple ways to host a low-pressure tarot night and give your guests a little magic they'll remember forever. We close with a Tarot pull on how to invite more play into our lives today. 

If this episode resonates, please: subscribe, share with a friend who loves Tarot or Alaska stories, and leave a review to help more creative spirits find us.

Some things we referenced in this episode: the book Feel Good Productivity by Ali Abdaal, The Liberation Tarot and Light Seer's Tarot, and check out Arianna's Sounding Board Sessions and her Pitch Party on November 5!

This podcast is a production of Typewriter Tarot. Learn more & join us:

SPEAKER_01:

Hello, creative spirits. Welcome to another episode of your creative and magical life. I'm your host, Cecily Saylor, and I'm so glad you're here. We have another sweet episode with Ariana Smith, and we'll be having a really sweet conversation about Alaska and the wilderness and reading tarot for more than one person, doing the group thing, and probably talk a little bit about transitions of some kind as we start to transition seasons, but as we are always transitioning, it feels like. So I hope this supports you and enriches your creative and magical life. I'm really happy to have Ariana back on the show. I think Ariana is going to be visiting about monthly to just be a conversation partner. I'm an only child. I like to do things by myself, but it's nice to just have someone to flow with and chat with and nerd out without necessarily having it be an interview. So Ariana and I were kind of jiving and she's back for more. Hello, Ariana. Welcome, welcome.

SPEAKER_00:

I love this contrast. Hello, everyone. Um, I'm actually a twin and a double gemini. Yeah. So we'll get more into that when we talk about Alaska. But when you say you're like an only child, I was like, I don't even know what that's like. I mean, I've shared a womb since I existed.

SPEAKER_01:

And I cannot imagine twins. My partner is a fraternal twin. Yeah, twins are just like unicorns. It's amazing. You're a twin from Alaska, so you're extra unicorn.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I well, so I have a fraternal twin sister, and she actually has identical twin girls. So uh there's a lot of matching outfits. It's just all I'm gonna say about that.

SPEAKER_01:

Matching outfits. Your sister probably isn't in Alaska anymore. She is, yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Everyone's up there. Yeah, everyone's up there.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I knew you went to Alaska. It was in your wonderful newsletter. And then I realized you were from Alaska, and Alaska to me is like this exotic wilderness land that I've been wanting to visit for decades. And I'm like, wow, there's someone who's like, it's just their home and a place that they go. And as some of my listeners know, if you've heard me, I'm like a paranormal freak. And there's lots of like good paranormal things in Alaska. So that also got me excited. But would you tell us a little bit about where you're from and what it's like?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I was born and raised in Alaska on a homestead in outside West Silla in the Meadow Lakes area, if people know. And that homestead was built by my maternal grandpa and great grandma. And when my mom was raised in that homestead, they eventually got running water. And then by the time I was raised in that, we had electricity, we had running water. So it was the homestead, but not in the way it was back in the 50s. Um, so I have a really lovely lineage of both both my grandparents on both sides settling in Alaska and just being like, this is where we want to be. My parents actually met at Wasilla High School. They were high school sweethearts, and then I went to that high school. So I was raised around a lot of extended family. And I identify as highly sensitive. I don't know if you do as well. And really being raised in Alaska as a like a highly sensitive child was so amazing. I just got to play in the woods. Like I just had to stay within earshot and just watch out for moose. I just got to be in nature and like play in my head and like swim in the lake, pretend I was a mermaid. It just was so lovely in that respect. Along the lines of the only child piece, I was raped by incredibly, incredibly independent women, like very hyper-independent. And so I really grew up watching the women in my family just take care of shit and get it done. And my dad worked up on the North Slope, which is the oil rig up on the very, very tippy top of Alaska. And so he would be gone two weeks at a time and home two weeks at a time. And so when he was gone, there was a blizzard, the power went out, my mom lighting candles, she's filling the bathtub with water, she's getting out the snow plow. And if we don't have power, we're navigating that. So I grew up not as an only child, but just with that energy of like, I can do this. And I think that really contributed to me eventually leaving the state, moving out of state, starting my own business, enjoying the risk of that, and still like loving being an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_01:

Amazing. I was in this environment where it was like all concrete, streets, giant highways, traffic. And by the time I was finishing high school, I was like, I gotta get the fuck out of here. It just didn't nourish me. And I'm in Austin now, and I've been in Austin a long time, and it's not that far from Houston, but there's the river running through the city, there's a green belt and hills, and um, there's just more green. There's a spring in town, you know, we can go swimming. So that's beautiful that you had that experience.

SPEAKER_00:

So you have to look out for moose more than bear. It depends where you're at. It depends. I mean, I'm definitely not gonna fuck with bears, but it was much more likely down where I was to see a moose. And what you have to watch out for in if she've got some babies, we do not want to get in between mama and moose and her babies. And I just think they're the coolest creatures, like just so big and peaceful, and also not the smartest. I have funny memories of driving along the highway, and like the moose would think it was hidden because it couldn't see you. It'd be behind a brush with its big, huge rum sticking out, and it's like we can see you. This isn't obvious. But I hear you on needing an environment that was sensory friendly for you. That's something whenever I go back to Alaska, especially I stay with my parents, it's so quiet. It's so quiet. I live in Denver now. I live outside Denver, and it's just so quiet. And I don't think folks realize you and I did, but I don't think folks realize just the wear on your nervous system when you're around that all the time, highly sensitive or not.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes. That's very real. And looking back on it, I think my experience with alcohol was a way to tone things down and then not drinking anymore and getting older and just letting myself be more of who I am.

SPEAKER_00:

It's like the sensitivities are even greater. Something that stood out to me when I first started understanding and studying high sensitivity was this statement. I don't remember who said it, but they said an HSP has saved a life at least once with their high sensitivity because of something they noticed that people didn't. And here's my story. I was in an apartment, I was living in an apartment on the second floor, and I kept hearing the beeping above us. My partner at the time didn't hear it. I was like, no, there is a beeping happening up there. And I called the office, and the people above us had left their oven on and had left the house and could have burned down the place, but I heard it. Our sensitivity helps us notice things that other people don't, and also makes us very creative, very attuned to tarot. But I want to hear, okay, speaking, you know, sensitive, you have I am not as into the paranormal history of Alaska as you are. So I think you're gonna give I I think you're gonna teach me something about Alaska.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, don't count on it, but two things I want to say real quick is that strangely, perhaps magically, before we got on to record this episode, I went to the post office to mail a couple of my books that people purchased, and one of them was going to Wasilla, Alaska today. And I actually had to look at the thing again because it was more expensive than usual. And I was like, what? Oh, it's going to Alaska. And then I was like, wait, is Wasilla in Arkansas or Alaska? Sorry. Anyway, so on my mind, and hi to Barb in Wasilla, who's got a book coming. Wait, that's my mom's name.

SPEAKER_00:

Her last name is Smith. I think you're did your mom buy my book? I don't know. I don't want to share her address. Can you type in the chat the address? Yes, let me get it. So there's that's fucking wild.

SPEAKER_01:

Why, yeah, so wild.

SPEAKER_00:

Um my mom is an art teacher, so or a retired art teacher. So if she didn't buy it, then someone else did. But it's probably a different Barb Smith. But if she did, that would be wild. Hold on, hold the fucking phone. Hold on. Dot. I have to look. Hold on, I'm sorry. She does have a UPS bar. My mom bought your book. That's my mom's fucking address. My mom bought your book. And I mailed it today.

SPEAKER_01:

And wow, that's hilarious. Oh my gosh. Wait, what's your uh it's tarot for creative spirits? I need to send you a copy. It's got journaling prompts for every card in the tarot and creative prompts, and it's illustrated. Oh, that's totally my mom's vibe. And there's a lot of tarot spreads in the back, but it's basically to help you get to know the cards through your own personal experience while also getting some really rich self-inquiry. And obviously, it's magical, as we can tell from this whole conversation. But I often find that when you pull a card for the day and go to that prompt, and it will usually like give you just what you need. Yeah, I need to send you one. The other thing is that I wanted to say is that I listened, my father and I watched Northern Exposure gleefully when I was a little when I was younger, when that was coming out, and that was obviously set in a small town in Alaska with a doctor who'd come from New York City living in this small town. And in the opening, there's like a moose walking down the main street. It's the saddest moose.

SPEAKER_00:

Just so you know, Alaskans like look at that. First off, not to bust Burst your bubble. It was filmed in Canada. Nothing is ever really filmed in Alaska because it's too expensive. But I love that we I love that you enjoyed that. I was just the generation to miss it or to like not get the humor. And also back to the homestead, we didn't really have TV in our house. So maybe I need to go back and watch the episodes. Is there an episode that stands out to you about northern exposure?

SPEAKER_01:

It's been a while, but I'm kind of tempted to go back as well. And this is where Aiden from Sex in the City first started. He was the DJ at the radio station, the hippie guy, little bit of dude energy from Big Lebowski. He's like the hot man on the show. Anyway, in terms of the paranormal, I just love that content. I've always been interested in like mysterious things. And when I was young, it was ghost stories or books with a ghost in it, like wait till Helen comes. Oh, oh, I remember that. And then I think I just didn't think about it too much for a while. But when I got back into tarot, I just let everything start connecting. And now there's like more content around it on streaming services. But there's a show on HBO, I think, called The Alaska Triangle. It's kind of a reference to the Bermuda Triangle. Sort of hilarious because like when they show you the Alaska Triangle, it's pretty much all of Alaska. But it has a lot to do with people's mysteriously disappearing, which of course can happen just in the wilderness because there's so many hazards and no one you can call, and everything is so remote. Also, Bigfoot encounters, UFO sightings, and I think there's an episode about a ruined town that maybe had a fishery and a cannery that everyone fled suddenly because of some mysterious thing. And there's another show called Aliens in Alaska. And both of them, as far as these kinds of shows go, are pretty well produced. I'm not saying they're Emmy winning, but pretty good quality for the genre. So there's not a lot of history I can share with you. I'm not an expert. I am an entertained spectator, but I think it also fits with just that majesty of Alaska. I do want to know have you ever had any like interesting, strange, unexplainable experiences?

SPEAKER_00:

We'll start with that. I haven't, although legend has it that my paternal grandma was psychic. I never she died before I was born. Um and would know people were calling before they called. And something that she said to my dad that my dad passed to me, and this is all secondhand. Apparently, my grandma said, if you don't want to engage with a spirit, ask it to go away. Tell it to go away. Say, I want nothing to do with you, please go away. And so I was raised around acknowledging that that could happen, but that just ask it to go away. And so I never really had that experience, but it I also felt like if I did, I would had been told what to do. But I am going to ask the next time I go up, I am gonna ask my extended family if they have ever had any paranormal experiences because my dad is a bush pilot, and so was my uncle and my grandpa. When I went back, my partner went with me for the first time. My partner, who was raised in California, also lived in New York for 15 years, comes back and is just like, it's so rural. And I was like, Wassilla isn't really considered rural by Alaska standards, you know? We can get to a grocery store in 30 minutes. That's not rural. We can get there by car. Just her observing and seeing family dynamics helped me just have added clarity around how I show up in the world, some of my patterns I think are normal or maybe healthy that actually maybe aren't. And also have a deeper appreciation for the people that are in my life. And I know we have talked before, our speaking of alien, speaking of paranormal, we had our very first episode disappear about yes. But then we also talked last time about coming out of the broom closet. And I had a couple of family members that are like, we want a tarot reading. My boundary is I don't give tarot readings if you're just gonna do it to make fun of me or of tarot. But if you genuinely want a tarot reading, let's do it. So I actually got to give a tarot reading to my sister's friends, my sister, my mom, and my aunt while I was up there. And that was why y'all. That was just wild to be like, oh my gosh, I'm doing this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's exciting when your family starts to like open up about it or get more curious about it if they're not already into it. And yeah, it's interesting. There's some kind of like existential filter that comes up when you bring someone you know in your current life to a place. I don't know. Like, even when you bring a friend into your new house and they haven't been there before, and you're kind of like, oh, how do I look at this through new fresh eyes, the way that my friend might be? Um seem with going to your home, your place of origin, even more so, especially when you have family members around. So I'm curious if there's anything you want to share about what you noticed.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, my partner noticed more so. Okay. I think there's I mean, connecting this to like IFS because I'm a huge IFS nerd.

SPEAKER_01:

Um that is internal family systems.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, internal family systems. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And we I failed to mention just to remind folks, tell us about your work really quick and where you're coming from. My bad. I'm treating you like you're just like always here.

SPEAKER_00:

Here, I love it just to dive in. Well, since we last met, I'm officially an IFS certified therapist, which requires an X level around that. So I'm a psychotherapist, I have a certified therapist, love working with neurodivergent, highly sensitive, queer trauma survivors. So I bring a big attachment lens, trauma-informed lens, and a parts, parts lens to my work. And then you and I were talking about writing earlier. I'm also a copywriter. And then in the past year, as has been the story of the past, I reluctantly started offering professional tarot readings. So now I'm now I, as I joke, I'm a professional witch. We need them. Yeah, we do. We do. Yes, me. Um, so your question around what I noticed. Well, no one's on time. We have Smith time, and my beloved partner is on time to everything and in fact is like early. So I got to notice a little bit. I'd always known that I had a little bit of time blindness, but I got to really see that in action a little bit more and be how no one can leave the house on time. And there's stages to saying goodbye. The other thing that she noticed that I that I took for granted is what we do in family is we like sit and visit. And she was like, I don't know, visiting. She's like, visiting, what does that mean? You know, because she'd wanted to have a plan and what we do. And I was like, Oh, we're probably just gonna like sit and visit. Visit what does that mean? I think it's a Midwestern thing because I brought it up to my friend who might some of my friends are from the Midwest, the South, too. You sit and talk, yeah. And they're probably food there, probably drink there. Yep. So I just saw how much that that was a big part of my family dynamic is we just love to sit and talk and connect, and then also dynamics around what did I notice? I think more just, and this goes back to the parts work thing. I think when we're around family, it's really easy to go into teenage parts, young adult parts, child parts, and having someone there helps you stay in your core adult self and interact with folks differently and interact with them as an adult because I've been away from Alaska since I was probably for like 15 years now. And I very much joke I'm like an MM that's like Alaska on the inside, but like Colorado on the outside. So I probably am not really super Alaskan by Alaskan standards, except until I bring people home. And I was like, oh yeah, of course. Like, watch out for the moose. There's a moose there. We thought moose on our first day. So that is something that I noticed is that having someone there was a really nice anchor, but also it made me want to think about the practices that helped me stay connected to me and to adult me and for me. And in doing that, it really helped deepen my relationships with the other family members and show up as an adult, not as a teenager or as a child or even as a young adult. Will you share the practice? Uh feels anchoring. I mean, I love morning pages.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

I know it's basic, but I love morning pages. And I love obviously pulling cards. I've been doing a lot of morning one card pulls. What do I need to know today? What do I need to know? What does my heart need in doing that as well? What about you? Do you have anything?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, journaling is big. Pulling cards is big. Getting out for a walk with my dogs is big. When I meditation is really helpful and like taking breaks, going outside. Um yeah. And sometimes the quiet or alone time is really nice too, having a little pocket of that. Yeah. Let's go back to reading tarot for your family. Yeah. What was that like? What happened there?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I knew going up that my was gonna be giving a reading to my sister's friend who I didn't know. I'd love to hear your experience about this. It's really different to read for someone that you don't know and you don't have a relationship with than someone you do have a relationship with as well. But the first the first experience I've had of reading tarot with a witness is what I think about it, was actually reading for my aunt for her birthday. And my mom was present and a witness for that. The theme I'm seeing is it makes it so much richer because I have my perspective reading for the card, but then that third party, that witness, gets to bring in a really valuable and different perspective. And so, for example, I'm trying to respect like privacy and all of this, but what I found is that I would be reading the cards and I'd be like, here's what the cards are saying, here's what I'm seeing. Does this resonate for you? And the person receiving the reading would be like, well, kinda, I don't know. And then the third party, sister, mom, and would be like, um, actually, you do XYB. And so it was this, because I feel like when I am reading tarot, I'm there to interpret the cards and there to make meaning and help to like help them with that process. But then there's this third person there that's just like, no, I totally see this for you. And so it adds really, really beautiful angle to it because tarot is already revealing what we don't know and what we can't see and what we might not want to look at. And then you're limited by the consciousness of the person that you're reading for. But when you have this third person who knows them, it's making it five-dimensional in a way, is the way I see it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's really interesting to have. I like that word, a witness that feels really sweet and juicy. I've done a lot of readings in public, like maybe where I have a little table at an event and people come and sit down. And so often they're like, Can my friend sit with me? Or two people approach and they're like, Do you want to do it together? And so that'll happen from time to time. And just for what it's worth, if anyone out there is doing this kind of thing or thinking about this kind of thing, my approach is always to ask the person who's getting the reading, do you want them there or do you want privacy? It's interesting when there's a couple and sometimes they want to read together, but sometimes a partner, one of the partners wants to have privacy. And sometimes something from the relationship will come up in the reading. But uh there's both the there's like some extra validation, like you're saying, and you get a second response to what you're offering through the card. So the friend starts nodding or smiling or kind of laughing, or there's, you know, elbowing the query, and they'll bring, you know, sometimes they'll bring in something that enhances it. And then I think for the person watching the reading, sometimes for the witness, sometimes that person is the one who wants to go second because they're a little bit tentative. So watching the reading take place and seeing how it's conducted and what it's going to be like and how it's not really that scary really gets some excitement going for them to have their cards read. And then, of course, there's this renewed, I feel like connections of intimacy are either energized or enhanced through the reading because the reading's always going to get into the the stuff of life that's like really important and really uh really holding a lot of weight and meaning for people. And so it gets them talking about that thing, which they may, of course, talk about plenty, but they might not talk about it that much. And so, um, and the querant gets this reminder that their friend sees them and knows them and is both on their team, but also there it'll keep them straight a little bit sometimes or help them see through the blind spots. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's kind of like tarot gets to call bullshit. And like you've had readings like that where you like look at a card and you're like, Oh, okay, how am I gonna how am I gonna communicate this? And so you communicate it very softly, gently or directly. And then that third person, that witness, gets to be like, Yeah, remember when XYZ? I really unintentionally have pulled a lot on my training around offering like therapy groups when I'm doing these. The word that keeps to mind is like tarot, tarot witnessing, like tarot reading, tarot witnessing, because I just can't help but want to nourish those threads and nourish what they're observing, still keeping it focusing on the queryant, but also, you know, you as the tarot reader, depending if you're reading for them or not, you're not going to be continuing to support them with the integration. So that's another beautiful aspect of having a witness to it, is then being able, almost helping to be a little bit of accountability around integrating it too.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And because the person saw every card flop over, the query doesn't have to explain the reading first because the other person just experienced it. And so you already have that frame of reference. And there will often be this thing too where the this like, we were just talking about blah blah blah blah blah. So they get that magical synchronistic, yeah, the universe hears you and it's talking back, and that was an important thing that you were talking about, and you know, because maybe they're talking about what happened with their therapist or whatever, and then the cards will come underline that. And I think to your point about groups therapeutically, being in a therapy group for me was an interpersonal processing group of men and women with a male and a female therapist. I did that for three years, and that really did so much for me. So much for me. It's really powerful because you'll find people in the group who become a kind of archetype for someone else in your life that you have baggage with. And so you can work out some of that friction. It's like uncomfortable and it's scary, and it takes like a long time to slowly move through that, but you have this stand in to work. It out with who isn't in your life. I mean, they're in your life once a week for an hour, but you can't text them, you can't hang out, you don't owe them anything. So that's a really beautiful work. And partly why, you know, I've created the Creative Magic Collective. It's single. Everything multiplies when you do it in community IP.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, and you know, group groups are just a microcosm of the outer world. And so whatever comes up in groups is coming up in your outside life. And that's that's how certain therapists work. That's how I really lean a lot on a therapist. If I'm feeling a certain way towards a client, I don't personalize that. I'm like, oh, if I'm feeling this way towards them, I wonder if other people feel that way towards them. And how can I bring that in? How can I better understand that? How can I bring that into the work in a way that's helpful for the client? Because therapy is a relationship, group therapy is a relationship. I also want to name, I think the most effective groups, and maybe people might point me on this. I think the most effective groups have two facilitators because there is so much to spot and track, right? So much to spot and track, which is why when I think of group tarot reading, I'm like, how are you attuned to everything? How do you attune to the individual versus the vibe of the group? I'm obviously feeling out this model, but that's what's different from what we're describing with having a witness. I'm attuning to the query, not to that witness. I mean, I'm picking up the vibe, but I'm really attuning to the person. But when you're doing a group tarot reading, what are you attuned to? Have you done group tarot readings before? Like for an actual group?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I remember a party that a friend held and they invited me to read. And instead of ending up at a little table, we just did like a big table, and whoever wanted to be there could sit. So maybe it was six to eight people around a table. And I think I did like one or two cards for everyone. And so some people knew each other in different kinds of ways. And it was also there were other people at the party doing other things. So it was a little challenging to go super deep. But within the group, you're awaiting your turn. But when it's your turn to get a reading, most of the other people are tuned in to you and what you're getting. And then you start to see connections between people arise that maybe they were not aware of, or there's a new basis for conversation, or just a connection that wasn't present before, whether it's from some past experience or being an only child, for example, or being a twin, for example. And then there's also this moment because in a reading, the querent is going to share something. So then there's this spirit of a little bit of vulnerability that starts to get cultivated. And it's not going to go super deep in a setting like that. Um, but in an enclosed therapy group, it certainly can. And so I'm coming back to this word visiting. Every person at the table is getting a visitation from the tarot. And then everyone's in this visiting space because they're catch catching on to each other or tuning into some part of life that hasn't been discussed, but it just creates this sort of magical energy that's also related to real life and what you care about, which many group settings we can be a part of are just more superficial.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that. I agree. I mean, tarot deepens. Yes, it deepens. And I noticed that when I was reading for my family, that it opened the door for people to say things. When you were talking about vulnerability, it opened the door for people to say things in a way that was vulnerable, but not confrontational.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And that is one pattern I noticed in my family. We're very non-confrontational.

SPEAKER_01:

Same in money. We do lots of things, but we don't deal with the issues. Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. That was very non-confrontational and conflict avoidant, which reasons why, very valid reasons why around that. So the tarot was such a beautiful invitation for things to be said. You know, the positive I want to give to non-confrontational is consent-based. You really, really, really need invitation. Speaking of visitations, you need invitations to bring things up. And tarot is that invitation. It is an invitation to be like, how do you see it? Right? What's your perspective on this? But if you're not invited to do it, then it feels like you're confronting that, you know. I notice just doing so many readings in a row, a couple different themes. One of them is a lot of people know what they need and they know what's right. And sometimes the readings were almost a little anticlimactic because they were just a confirmation. Sometimes I go into tarot and I am like reveal something mind-blowing to me. I'm in this season of transition and I keep pulling the moon and I'm so annoyed. I'm just like, no, give me something else. Um, but that's the beauty of tarot, is it can be a confirmation. Also, the themes that I saw with people really wanting things to be simple and then to being so much more complex than they are. And I really just want this to be a black and white decision. I really just want to know. And it's like, no, this is so much more complex. So sometimes you leave a tarot reading feeling more open and more uncomfortable with less clarity because you're like, oh, I've just been simplifying this as well. And then there are the tarot readings, which I think is what people think of, where they are kind of blown open and they are told things that really go to the core. And this is something of I'd be curious to hear about this for you too. This is something I've just honed as a therapist. I don't know if all tarot readers are like that. But having been a therapist for a long time now, I can pull a tarot card and get an intuitive feeling and be like, oh, like this is the core of it. And I need to be really gentle around this. Does this ever happen for you? Where you're like, oh, this is the core of this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think it comes when like a pairing of cards. Usually I'll kind of do a reading in stages, which is probably common where we're looking at this thing, and there'll be two or three cards for that. And then there will be like somewhere in one of those sections, there's a pairing that really feels powerful or more uh illuminated than the other cards. And yeah, I did a reading the other day, and lots of things were like making sense and seemed to be feeling helpful. And then the course of that conversation brought this person to a question that had been with them for a while, something like people had been recommending they do, that they create because of the work that they'd been doing. And I think they'd brushed it aside mostly because they weren't that kind of creator or for whatever reason. But the two cards that came up were judgment and the empress. And normally I try to avoid questions where it's like, should I do this thing? So it's not a yes or no card. And it's also like, do you want to do the thing? But when judgment shows up as this spiritual bullhorn with the Empress about creativity, then I'm like, well, spirit thinks you should. And then there was this really beautiful emotional moment for this person because I think there was just an untended area, this lingering thing in the background that was finally getting some light and some conversation and some support and encouragement. And so that's like kind of one way I experience it where it seems like the cards in a cluster compared to what else is going on, speak more loudly.

SPEAKER_00:

I believe that the message finds it its way to you. You can't miss anything in tarot. And that's helped me as a reader for other people, but also just reading my own cards. It's like, I'm not gonna miss anything. Spirit, if you believe that, will find a way to let you know. It will keep sending the same card or it will send it in different ways. You can't miss it.

SPEAKER_01:

I suppose you can put your blinders on in such a way that you really try to shut things out, like truly. But if that's the case, you're not getting a tarot reading. Coming from tarot reading, you are curious and you want to know.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, question for you. This is related to group tarot reading. If folks are listening now and they're like, I want to read with friends, or I want to have a group tarot experience, what would you invite folks to do?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I would invite you to get creative with it and to feel into the energy of the group. If there are some people in the group who are really new to each other, but some people who have like a deeper relationship that creates a little bit of unevenness, let's say. So you could just put your deck in a basket, let's say, and people draw one when they come into the space. If there's something else going on, like it's not just about tarot. So it's an invitation to ask other people what card they got or what they think it means, or just look at the card together. Or you can have more of like a sit-down and everyone pulls a card and shares a little bit about it, what they think it means. And if you're more of the experienced tarot reader in the room, you can offer something. Or I've done some bachelorette parties too, where it's a small group and they rent airbnb, and they just all hang out while each of them gets a reading and listen because they are close. And so if you're, you know, wanting to practice or feeling like most of your friends are into tarot or tarot curious, and you want to offer this exploration together, then you can just make it one-to-one reading, but in the group. Yeah, and then there's probably a lot of other ways to do it that would create connection across people. I love your word invitation. Let there be an appropriate, attuned invitation for the group where they can get pulled a little more out of their shell without feeling too exposed.

SPEAKER_00:

So offering that invitation, but also allowing people to choose the lever of vulnerability that feels right for them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And also, of course, giving them zero trouble if they don't want to participate and they just want to watch everyone's on their own journey, especially if you've come out of a more extreme religious ideology, then there's a lot of like reluctance around what tarot means or what it can do, and just this feeling that it's wrong or something. And so someone like that may be on a different timeline with it. So we just want to really respect that.

SPEAKER_00:

I can see your thoughtfulness and how you facilitate and the creative way that you think about groups and facilitate groups in that way. And one thing you shared got me thinking, I am on a kick learning about play personalities. Have you ever heard about that?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that's fun.

SPEAKER_00:

It's been really healing for me to, it's from the book. Well, I first learned about it from the book Feel Good Productivity. The first chapter was all about play and the play personalities, and it was really revolutionarily for me because I'm not someone that really seeks out fun. I don't drink, I don't really use substances, and so I'm like, well, what do I do for fun? Like, I like read tarot and read books, and I talk to my plants. And actually, there are different types of play personalities, and one of them is a director, and it is fun for you to organize events to facilitate groups. And he smiled just now. Do you feel seen?

SPEAKER_01:

I feel very seen. Yeah, when you have your sun, moon, and Mars in Capricorn and your Saturn is in Virgo, you're gonna like be a little bit of a director sometimes. I don't like to be the stage person necessarily, but I certainly don't mind orchestrating or but I do have this like I'm so bossy, or I try not to be too bossy about it. Bossy if you know if you're right. I mean, right. It's like when you're in a highly sensitive person who's paying attention to what's going on. Is it bossy or just helpful?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, is it bossy or am I just right? And that's being bossy, I just know what's best. Wait, and you said you're a sun, moon, and what's your astrology? Mars and Capricorn. What's your rising?

SPEAKER_01:

Taurus.

SPEAKER_00:

Taurus. Okay, okay. It's real earthy over here. Yeah, I love it. Well, I also have a play personality, is we're gonna go down this tangent. It's gonna be healing for us. I will tell you the eight different play personality. There's the collector, the competitor, the explorer, the creator, the storyteller, the joker, the director. And I can't fix this word right. It's kinesty, can the kinesty. And so I am the collector because when I moved recently, I had over a carload of plants. And I've been using this self-care app and been recording like the small joys of my day. I get an unreasonable amount of joy taking care of my plants and seeing how they're growing and seeing how their leaves are doing and like talking to them. I love repotting my plants. I love clipping off their little babies and then rooting them and seeing how they're rooting. And then actually, my other play personality is the director. I love hosting events. And I actually have one coming up that's like yoga and chill. I have I did a book swap this summer for therapists and space holders. And I love it. I love writing the event description for it. I love filling out the time. I love seeing the registration roles in. I love being the host when people come. And it needs to be free, be the need to be free because otherwise it becomes work and I want it to be play, you know? And then, of course, my other play personality is the storyteller. I did theater a lot as a kid. I did theater actually, I did Spanish theater actually in college. So those are my three main types. And I just feel so seen in them because I'm like, oh, I'm doing something fun for me right now, and that's okay. Do you have a sense of which you are? I can read them again if you'd like.

SPEAKER_01:

I feel like I connected with almost all of them, except maybe for the competitor. I'm not like uh I'm not an athlete competitor, I'm not like a talent competitor. But if we're playing like a board game or something, we all love winning. And I collect stuff from nature. Like I found this feather, I found this seed pot, I found this bone. And all of those things are fun. You know, I'm a writer, I'm a storyteller. Like I haven't read the book and you know more about it. But just as you read them, I feel like, what if we are giving ourselves doses of those kinds of fun a lot? Now I'm thinking of like a little habit tracker where it's like, oh, I had some storytelling fun today, or I had some collecting fun today.

SPEAKER_00:

And there's I think anyone who loves tarot is the storyteller play personality because there is an infinite amount of stories that are being shared through tarot. I love sometimes just like pulling out cards and as if they were like a sequence. I got a little storyteller play the other day. I like pulled out cards and it was like I think it was like a knight of pentacles, and then there was a queen of cups in there, and I was just like telling a story from it.

SPEAKER_01:

That was one of the things that drew me to tarot really quickly as someone who wanted to be a writer since she was young and did an MFA in writing and struggled in my MFA and then found tarot later. I was like, oh, this is really helpful. Like it is a storytelling technology. So if we're storytellers by trade or passion, it's gonna help you.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my gosh. I was just thinking, who needs AI to think I have lots of thoughts around that. We can save that for a future topic. Speaking of collecting, I've been collecting articles that have been helping me form opinions around it. I did the play personalities with my family too. And it was fun to spot other people's play personalities, but I had to just kind of uh playfully tease you a little bit because you're like, everyone likes to win, right? said the Capricorn Stellium. Cause I'm like, I I mean, I don't. I will go to board games and I have to clarify. I'm like, is this a board game where we're gonna be serious about doing it, or is it just having fun? You'd probably, we could probably not do board games together because I'd be because you'd be like, all right, it's your turn. It's your turn, go.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I try not to be like, uh, I don't think I could be wrong. We could ask my partner or other people, but um, I don't think I get so hardcore in the game that like that's my main objective. I'm just saying it's fun when you win. It is fun. Like, tell me that's not fun. You don't have fun when you win.

SPEAKER_00:

I I I love being right. I love being right. I like betting, actually. But I don't gamble. But if my partner's like, oh, I can't find it, I'm like, if I can, will you? So I guess I kind of like being right. I don't like winning. But my partner's really good at board games. So the reason I know that she loved me is she never lets me win. Because I I so then when I do win, it's like earned, you know. Earned my Mars is in cancer.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm like, oh yeah. So it's like you don't like you're not aggressive with wins, but we all have a Mars placement, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I like to win through comfort, I guess.

SPEAKER_01:

Knowledge, like your Gemini, like I know what's up.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's more like a win, like being right. Like, like with this friend, I'm just like by September 9th, something will come in. Like, I am so confident it, you know. And if not, I'll buy you a copy. That's a win-win, right? Something good happens for her or she gets a copy. We all win. We're all gonna win. We're all winners. I'm glad we went down this avenue of play personalities. It felt playful for me. It did. Well, trust the Gemini to bring that and bring it to your partner. Let's find out what your partner's play personalities are. It's a good conversation, but this concept of play personalities also relates to this theme of invitations, intimacy, deepening connection. And I don't think we give enough credit to how play can deepen our connections with others. And play is also vulnerable. I'm only gonna just go with a storyteller one because that's what I'm most familiar with, but it's vulnerable to share something.

SPEAKER_01:

It requires you to surrender and be in the moment and take down some of those control faculty because play is opening the field of we're being more spontaneous and it is vulnerable, which is I think another reason why we do less of it than perhaps we used to.

SPEAKER_00:

But well, this is one of the culture things with my family in Alaska, is we roast each other. Okay, I'll share this. This is really fun. You know, cards against humanity.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so we have this game that was created speaking in play. Oh my gosh, who would have known where to go through this today? I'm so glad we did. We have this game called What's Paul's problem, which is my dad's name. So basically, we go around in a circle and whoever the person is, yeah, what's their problem? What's the catalyst for the game? What's the catalyst? I mean, it's a way to roast people and to be funny, and it's all anonymous. So the way you win, I actually won most of them. I'm gonna brag about that.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you enjoy it?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, okay, so I did. Because I was right. Part of this game is like getting, I'm like, what is gonna make them laugh? But what is also what is like the core and funny? And this is a skill I have to use all the time as a therapist and as a tarot reader of just like, okay, how can I approach this in a way that they're gonna feel like they're in on it with me and I'm not making fun of them. So my cousin is engaged and getting married, and so one of my aunts, her problem was is that her son's fiance is smarter than her. And so that was an example of that's her problem. And so it's like digging at her, something like that. So if it was my turn, they'd be like, What's Ariana's problem? And everyone gets a piece of paper and they anonymously write down, like, what's my problem? And then they hand about to me, and then I read them and then I pick the one that is my problem that is actually my problem.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, it's interesting because it's like confrontational, but there's people showed up for the invitation, they said yes.

SPEAKER_00:

It's about a way of pointing out what everyone sees, but no one's gonna say. So one of my cousins has five kids, and so his problem birth control, right? And he laughed around that. It's a way to give a dig, like in a loving way.

SPEAKER_01:

It's like a spin on cards against humanity.

SPEAKER_00:

It is, it's basically, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Cool. Well, I think this is a fun place to start to wind down. You mentioned arrow spread.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Spread around like how to incorporate more play. That's good. Let's do that.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you feel like it's a good first one to just be where can I play more? Yeah. Okay. How can I play more?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, we're gonna draw for ourselves then.

SPEAKER_01:

I can draw for you. We can do it like beach balls problems, and I can just roll for you and you draw for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, where does Cecily need more play? I love this. Oh, this is fun. All right, I'll pull for you now. What deck are you using?

SPEAKER_01:

The Liberation Tarot. Oh, why out for yes? The Nine of Cups flew out for you.

SPEAKER_00:

That's interesting. Okay, I want to hear what your read on that. It feels like thinking even more expansively about what play looks like for you and letting yourself dream. And can dreaming be play for you? Can wishing be play for you? Does that resonate at all?

SPEAKER_01:

I think so, but I pulled this card from the Lucille Clifton. There's a Lucille Clifton poetry deck, and last night I got the card that said, Wake up, girl, you dreaming. Like, oh, am I in a kind of illusion?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, so maybe it's like stop dreaming and go and do the thing. Like, how would you play next? Like, what was one of your dreams?

SPEAKER_01:

I think it's this struggle to believe in my ideas. And I can like work through them and I finish things, but but there's always some pain, which I think is normal. But in the middle, it's like, what if no one wants this? It feels like no one wants this. Maybe I should like stop. Um that card made me feel like, oh, maybe I am overdreaming. But I feel like sometimes that person in that card is like they have a lot of belief. They're like, look at all my cups.

SPEAKER_00:

It could also be like pick a cup, which is a little bit more seven of cups vibes, but this is what the card, I have light sears. I'm going more off this vibe of like it's a very joyful card, lots of options. I like that.

SPEAKER_01:

I've been pulling seven of cups lately too. But that one feels like it takes seven of cups and turns it into a little more of like fool energy.

SPEAKER_00:

The other way I would look at this, because if you've been getting seven of cups, and I think, oh, is your reading, is your message really about the eight of cups right now? Like that journey from seven to nine. Like, yes, it's about the nine of cups, but in order to get to that nine of cups, is there some eight of cups energy? Is there some cups you're having to leave behind?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think there's been some shadow work I need to get into, but I'm not. And I wonder if you have a good recommendation for that. I feel like parts work is shadow work too. Um, and interestingly, the shadow is your card. What? Oh, what does that correlate to? That is the devil. Oh. Yeah, so this feels like parts work. This has a figure that's tethered to its double looking in a mirror. And so I don't even know that it's necessarily like have fun, Ariana, doing more shadow work, but I feel like now you have this IFS piece you feel more trained to use in your practice, and also as a Gemini and just who you are, and having read up on play personalities that you can bring that playfulness into shadow work or IFS work. I probably need to just book a session with you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Speaking of IFS, I I definitely have a part that's like the fun police. I've had to work a lot with a part that is like if you have too much fun, you'll never stop having fun. I think this relates a little bit to my neurodivergence and also time and also my hate human design. Like once I'm in something, I want to just be in that. I just want to be immersed in that. And I have this part that's like, nope, you can't have too much fun, otherwise, you won't want to go back to work. Yeah. And so I think it's an invitation to look at those shadow elements that are have maybe some old beliefs around fun that aren't accurate anymore.

SPEAKER_01:

I imagine too that growing up on a homestead or just having ancestors who had to really create their own subsistence, particularly in Alaska, really deal with some challenging things in order to make that happen. That too much fun was dangerous.

SPEAKER_00:

I think it also connects to more personally, we've talked about this in the past of just I never really had a quote unquote problem with alcohol, but I definitely didn't make the best choices when I was on it. Should we pull um a card for the listeners for the group? I'll pull another one for listeners for the group. How can they bring in more play? Oh. I got Ten of Pentacles. What did you get?

SPEAKER_01:

I got the student of blades or page of swords.

SPEAKER_00:

I always think of the page of swords as like the student too.

SPEAKER_01:

Go take your plate personality test.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. I will make sure to send that there is an actual quiz that you can do around it. Like go be curious around this. Um, I love the interpretation of Page of Swords as you know more than you think you know, and that there's value in being a novice. And I think that's such a heart of play, is you can't really be an expert at play. Yeah. It's like anathetical. Yes. And then I'm feeling a little stumped around the Ten of Pentacles in this situation. When I see the Ten of Pentacles, I think about legacies and an invitation to think about lineage around what did play mean for you as a kid? How did your parents play? How did your siblings play? And is there something there to notice? Do you have any take on either of these cards?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I like that. I would add to Ten of Pentacles. My playful response is like to play what's Pal's problem with your family with family. If they could survive it, he's sad. And then playing with the people around you, playing with the people in your network. Ten of Pentacles is one of those where I think it can be a family lineage, but it can also be your intergenerational friendships, playing with your friends' kids if you don't have your own kids or your nieces and nephews, but also play your grandmother's favorite board game with her if she's around. Gather the people who are already here and play with them.

SPEAKER_00:

I have a really sweet story about that before we sign off. I used to, speaking of being the director, play personality, I used to host big card game meetups and play cards. And my grandma was a card shark. And so one time before the event, the friend that I was hosting the event with, we made a little altar and we picked a card that represented our grandma's. This is very Ten of Pentacles. To be like, yes, we're playing cards for fun, but we're playing cards on our grandmas, and we're gonna have fun for our grandmas. And this is the way that their grandma had fun. And the friend's grandma was more of a nurturer, and my grandma, she was so smart. So you can bring in an altar or a ritual to your play too, as well. We covered a lot of fun stuff today. We did, we did.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. Thank you. I want to, before we sign off, just remind folks that you can join my newsletter and you can join Ariana's wonderful newsletter as well. And you can also get my book, which we talked about in this episode, which is gonna help you deepen your tarot practice and your creative practice and your relationship with yourself. And Ariana, you have some invitations open for people. What would you like to share?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, also, next time we meet, I'm gonna text my mom after this and find out the story behind Barb and your book. What do I want folks to know about? I just opened up sounding board sessions, which are a blend of witchy vibes and strategy when it comes to the one thing that's been keeping you up at night around your business, your copy, your words, your message. And it was really modeled by being in groups with people and the power of having that undivided, devoted attention to something that you have been thinking about for like years or weeks or all that time. So that's something I opened up today, but I'm sure it'll be open whenever you release this tip.

SPEAKER_01:

But all the links for many of these things we discussed will be in the show notes. And we so appreciate everyone listening. If you could share this episode with someone who might enjoy it or needs a little play or is developing their tarot practice or is also obsessed with Alaska, please share it, pass it along. And Ariana, thank you so much for coming back. I am looking forward to next time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thanks so much. Talk soon.

SPEAKER_01:

Bye, everyone.